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Thread: Are illegal farm workers a net negative or a net positive to the industry as a whole?

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    Default Are illegal farm workers a net negative or a net positive to the industry as a whole?

    this was brought up in the "to bst or not to bst" thread and i think is a very valid one.

    what are your thoughts?

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    dclan you like to debate on the internet.

    So do I.

    Net negative.

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    Illegal is negative, but trying to remove illegal immigrants is impractical, not cost effective and counter productive
    Legal is positive but politicians lack the backbone to allow more of it.
    Current immigration policy is negative and needs to eliminate the quota system for country of origin and needs to cut the red tape.
    DiederichFarm
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    Quote Originally Posted by cousinit View Post
    dclan you like to debate on the internet.

    So do I.

    Net negative.
    yes, net negative and in a very, very big way

    Quote Originally Posted by drdiederich View Post
    Illegal is negative, but trying to remove illegal immigrants is impractical, not cost effective and counter productive
    Legal is positive but politicians lack the backbone to allow more of it.
    Current immigration policy is negative and needs to eliminate the quota system for country of origin and needs to cut the red tape.
    please explain on impractical, not cost effective and counter productive.

    why do we need more of it?

    why do we need to cut red tape and increase it?

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    Illegal immigration is probably neutral. It comes with odd problems like health-care issues, identity fraud, tax issues and the benefit of a readily available work-force.

    Legal immigration is a positive and always will be. When young healthy working people enter a country they want "a better life." They are the demographic buying cars, building homes, having kids, buying more "stuff". They spend that paycheck as fast as it comes in and for the economy that is a good, good thing. And since they are buying all that "stuff" the country needs even more people to make said "stuff". These are the type of people starting small businesses and keeping communities alive.

    That said, it seems like every generation of immigrants has resented the next incoming wave. French hate the English hate the German hate the Irish hate the Greek hate the Italian hate the Polish hate the Mexican.......you get the idea. Just because my family got here 100 years ago, why does that make me any different than someone who wants to emigrate today? Would the US be better if we only had 250 million people? or 200 million? or 100 million? Maybe we should have only had a few colonies and just stopped then. I wouldn't be here and neither would most other people.

    So I say let the immigrants come. Make them citizens, show them where to vote and how to pay the correct amount of taxes. Three generations down the line they will be pretty similar to everyone else in the country.

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    Problem is, they don't want to become citizens.

    They just want to work, send money home, and then join their families when they're done making enough money here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cows250 View Post
    Illegal immigration is probably neutral. It comes with odd problems like health-care issues, identity fraud, tax issues and the benefit of a readily available work-force.

    Legal immigration is a positive and always will be. When young healthy working people enter a country they want "a better life." They are the demographic buying cars, building homes, having kids, buying more "stuff". They spend that paycheck as fast as it comes in and for the economy that is a good, good thing. And since they are buying all that "stuff" the country needs even more people to make said "stuff". These are the type of people starting small businesses and keeping communities alive.

    That said, it seems like every generation of immigrants has resented the next incoming wave. French hate the English hate the German hate the Irish hate the Greek hate the Italian hate the Polish hate the Mexican.......you get the idea. Just because my family got here 100 years ago, why does that make me any different than someone who wants to emigrate today? Would the US be better if we only had 250 million people? or 200 million? or 100 million? Maybe we should have only had a few colonies and just stopped then. I wouldn't be here and neither would most other people.

    So I say let the immigrants come. Make them citizens, show them where to vote and how to pay the correct amount of taxes. Three generations down the line they will be pretty similar to everyone else in the country.
    neutral, really? hmm, so a willing work force that will work for half of what a citizen would work for is a neutral.... interesting

    legal immigration is completely different, we are allowing people in with certain skill sets and they do not lower wages of those here in the same fields already.

    the problem in making those here illegally citizens is they bring nothing but unskilled cheap labor and that lowers wages for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by cousinit View Post
    Problem is, they don't want to become citizens.

    They just want to work, send money home, and then join their families when they're done making enough money here.
    you are correct, many do not.

    they also allow larger farms to function/exist, thus lowering the price the rest of the farms get for their products. remove the illegal and there would not be very many large dairies or large corporate veg/fruit farms.

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    Every single "Large" dairy and any dairy in general I've ever known about does not hire illegal immigrants because of the repercussions of knowingly hiring an illegal person......

    And yeah yeah you can talk about fake papers and stuff... W/e the operation does double check and make sure everything is legit before hiring a new employee and your **** right they do! Otherwise it will bite them in the ass! Guaranteed

    And you think if we stop illegals that somehow its going to just shut down large dairies??? No matter what happens they will always exist and get bigger! Another Guarantee

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    Robots won't work for large dairies, they are way too putzy.

    I do think if we stop illegals, the large dairies will cease to exist. All the large dairies hire illegals JS. There is simply no way to avoid it, unless you use E-verify. Do you use E-verify?

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    We have 4 legal Nicaraguans and 1 legal Mexican. No illegals. They have SS numbers, they pay taxes, they have bank accounts with the local bank and support local businesses. Legals are great, I dunno about illegals though.


    I think if illegals were banished, it would cause a big disruption, but in the end big dairies would do just fine.
    I know managers at mcdonalds and I know that our workers get paid better and get better benefits than most fast food restaurant employees. If you can't make a profit unless you hire illegals and pay them sub-minimum wage, you're doing something wrong, no matter how big you are.

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    Sasquatch, just because they have SS numbers, pay taxes, & have bank accounts with the local banks does not mean they are legal.

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    Dclan, how much do YOU think a milker should get paid? We start at $9.50, so I need to pay some "official citizen" $19 to do the same job? That's just crap. I started milking cows at $5.25 (when that WAS minimum wage) and finished at $9.75, 7 years ago. I certainly didn't think someone should be paying me twice as much.

    Milking cows is a stable job that requires well trained and motivated people to get it done properly, so most farms are willing to pay what it takes to keep good employees. If I tried to pay someone less than $8 an hour nobody would so up for the job, and $8 is still higher than minimum wage.

    In the last 4 years I have seen 3 "white" people TOTAL show up looking for a job. 2 guys looking for "anything," that hopped out of a truck, and one guy that just wanted the application. You see he needed to have that application to show to the unemployment guy that he was looking for work...he actually told me this. (In hindsight, I should have kept the application, but I was busy and he wasn't going away without it.)

    I have come to the very real conclusion that most "white" Americans are pretty lazy. If they don't get a 40 hour work week, weekends and holidays off, 4 weeks of vacation, and start at $20 an hour, they are just going to sit and collect unemployment. The idea that you could willingly work 60-70 hours a week, work every other weekend, and do vet check on Christmas is completely lost on most people. But that's farming. And to many dairymen what I just described is being fairly lazy for a farmer.

    Also, I hate to tell you this, but per US law, every child born here is a citizen, so even if the 1st generation hopped the fence, their kids are legal. This second generation is already in the workforce working right beside the 1st on many of the farms I have worked on. They attended school right beside the "white" kids, speak perfect English, and still know that a person has to work if they expect to get paid.

    Dclan, you seem to hate all forms of "large scale" agriculture, but where is the food and/or land going to come from if you expect to feed people? Or, is it just OK to let a few billion die while a select few get to eat your "pure, free-range/organic" food?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS_Farms View Post
    Every single "Large" dairy and any dairy in general I've ever known about does not hire illegal immigrants because of the repercussions of knowingly hiring an illegal person......

    And yeah yeah you can talk about fake papers and stuff... W/e the operation does double check and make sure everything is legit before hiring a new employee and your **** right they do! Otherwise it will bite them in the ass! Guaranteed

    And you think if we stop illegals that somehow its going to just shut down large dairies??? No matter what happens they will always exist and get bigger! Another Guarantee
    then you haven't been out that much, nearly every large farm that i have been associated with hires illegals and i have been on 100's.

    Quote Originally Posted by cousinit View Post
    Robots won't work for large dairies, they are way too putzy.

    I do think if we stop illegals, the large dairies will cease to exist. All the large dairies hire illegals JS. There is simply no way to avoid it, unless you use E-verify. Do you use E-verify?
    will put a kink in their operations and probably make them unprofitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    We have 4 legal Nicaraguans and 1 legal Mexican. No illegals. They have SS numbers, they pay taxes, they have bank accounts with the local bank and support local businesses. Legals are great, I dunno about illegals though.


    I think if illegals were banished, it would cause a big disruption, but in the end big dairies would do just fine.
    I know managers at mcdonalds and I know that our workers get paid better and get better benefits than most fast food restaurant employees. If you can't make a profit unless you hire illegals and pay them sub-minimum wage, you're doing something wrong, no matter how big you are.
    yes but many operations run based on the fact they can get cheap labor and even if it is not illegal, those illegal ones lower it for the ones you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by cousinit View Post
    Sasquatch, just because they have SS numbers, pay taxes, & have bank accounts with the local banks does not mean they are legal.
    i know of several just like that......

    Quote Originally Posted by cows250 View Post
    Dclan, how much do YOU think a milker should get paid? We start at $9.50, so I need to pay some "official citizen" $19 to do the same job? That's just crap. I started milking cows at $5.25 (when that WAS minimum wage) and finished at $9.75, 7 years ago. I certainly didn't think someone should be paying me twice as much.

    Milking cows is a stable job that requires well trained and motivated people to get it done properly, so most farms are willing to pay what it takes to keep good employees. If I tried to pay someone less than $8 an hour nobody would so up for the job, and $8 is still higher than minimum wage.

    In the last 4 years I have seen 3 "white" people TOTAL show up looking for a job. 2 guys looking for "anything," that hopped out of a truck, and one guy that just wanted the application. You see he needed to have that application to show to the unemployment guy that he was looking for work...he actually told me this. (In hindsight, I should have kept the application, but I was busy and he wasn't going away without it.)

    I have come to the very real conclusion that most "white" Americans are pretty lazy. If they don't get a 40 hour work week, weekends and holidays off, 4 weeks of vacation, and start at $20 an hour, they are just going to sit and collect unemployment. The idea that you could willingly work 60-70 hours a week, work every other weekend, and do vet check on Christmas is completely lost on most people. But that's farming. And to many dairymen what I just described is being fairly lazy for a farmer.

    Also, I hate to tell you this, but per US law, every child born here is a citizen, so even if the 1st generation hopped the fence, their kids are legal. This second generation is already in the workforce working right beside the 1st on many of the farms I have worked on. They attended school right beside the "white" kids, speak perfect English, and still know that a person has to work if they expect to get paid.

    Dclan, you seem to hate all forms of "large scale" agriculture, but where is the food and/or land going to come from if you expect to feed people? Or, is it just OK to let a few billion die while a select few get to eat your "pure, free-range/organic" food?
    as much as they can make, same as you. the pay scale you start at isn't crap. try living on it today. the only reason it is that low is because the illegal makes it that low. if it wasn't for the illegal you would have to pay $15 plus as what it should be.

    for what your paying it doesn't sound that you need very much training....

    why would a "white" guy show up for a measly $10 dollar an hour job? I wouldn't. if you would offer me $10, i would tell you to go pound sand.

    on the second generation, yes and those kids will work for less, thus helping to keep the labor pool wages down. i have friend who had a plumbing business in Amarillo. he was charging $65 an hour 20 years ago, he recently closed his business and moved as the illegals who had kids, some of them became plumbers and they are now charging $20. at first glance, that sounds good for the consumer, problem is it has lowered the wages of the entire area, thus becoming a huge net negative. same thing is/has happened here with companies moving jobs off shore. at first it was great, but as more did it and there were fewer jobs here, now there are fewer people with high incomes to buy all their crap.

    food will come from agriculture as it always has, it does not have to come from large ones. they are a net negative to the communities in which they reside and the nation as a whole.

    with your type of mindset you will not have the opportunity to farm for long if at all in the future. the big dairy will have made it nearly impossible for you. with companies like dean foods getting into dairying, it will not be long before there are fewer and fewer places to sell your milk. dean foods and related companies will have no need for the independent dairyman, thus they will price you out of the market. they will take the middleman out and sell their milk for cheaper then what you can produce it for, sell it to the dairy processor and the dairy processor make a profit in selling it to dean foods. same thing happened to pork and chicken, dairy is next, but hey, you might be able to last minutes longer then the neighbor so full speed ahead.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by dclanfamilydairy View Post
    please explain on impractical, not cost effective and counter productive.

    why do we need more of it?

    why do we need to cut red tape and increase it?
    Deporting willing and able, law abiding immigrants is a waste of money. Thinking you can find all 3 million plus is not only impractical but borderline insanity. Cost prohibitive because it would cost a ton of money. Billions upon billions and they can and would come right back. Our immigration policy does not reflect that it makes the most sense for people that are in mexico to come here (vs say Ghana) due to proximity. Then there is the economy view point. If you think immigration is bad then you are welcome to return to whatever country your ancestors came from... and then leave there and move to Africa. Having cheap "grunt" laborers is a HUGE benefit to the economy, ask ANY economist. An expanding economy requires an expanding workforce. This is why Japan and some European countries have trouble growing their economies now. Just because you don't like it doesn't change that reality. The use of immigrants as that "grunt" labor improves the lives of the "native" born people by making them get paid more on average (not less) and keeping costs of goods down. The "native" people move to management, or skilled labor positions. Allowing more skilled workforce immigrants allows for maintaining an adequate supply of skilled workers and innovators that are willing to take the risks necessary to grow an economy with inventions and business creation. The only reason the US didn't have lots of illegal immigration earlier is because they made immigrating much easier... all you had to do was come here and check in! Now it costs tens of thousands of dollars and takes 5+ (10 is common) years. The only difference between immigration today and immigration in the past is the laws make "illegal" today. Some of you say that they just send their money home, or save enough and go home or whatever.... that is no different then it was in the past either. As a fact though, the vast majority of immigrants want to stay but the fear of being deported means they do need to have a contingency plan.
    DiederichFarm
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdiederich View Post
    Deporting willing and able, law abiding immigrants is a waste of money. Thinking you can find all 3 million plus is not only impractical but borderline insanity. Cost prohibitive because it would cost a ton of money. Billions upon billions and they can and would come right back. Our immigration policy does not reflect that it makes the most sense for people that are in mexico to come here (vs say Ghana) due to proximity. Then there is the economy view point. If you think immigration is bad then you are welcome to return to whatever country your ancestors came from... and then leave there and move to Africa. Having cheap "grunt" laborers is a HUGE benefit to the economy, ask ANY economist. An expanding economy requires an expanding workforce. This is why Japan and some European countries have trouble growing their economies now. Just because you don't like it doesn't change that reality. The use of immigrants as that "grunt" labor improves the lives of the "native" born people by making them get paid more on average (not less) and keeping costs of goods down. The "native" people move to management, or skilled labor positions. Allowing more skilled workforce immigrants allows for maintaining an adequate supply of skilled workers and innovators that are willing to take the risks necessary to grow an economy with inventions and business creation. The only reason the US didn't have lots of illegal immigration earlier is because they made immigrating much easier... all you had to do was come here and check in! Now it costs tens of thousands of dollars and takes 5+ (10 is common) years. The only difference between immigration today and immigration in the past is the laws make "illegal" today. Some of you say that they just send their money home, or save enough and go home or whatever.... that is no different then it was in the past either. As a fact though, the vast majority of immigrants want to stay but the fear of being deported means they do need to have a contingency plan.
    it need not be expensive at all and they would go home on their own. all you need to do is have jail time and large fines for the owner (or board) and the person or persons that do the actual hiring if they hire an illegal. say 1k, 1 month for first offense and 6k, 6 months for the 2nd offense, 10k,1 year for the 3rd. after the first few are prosecuted the employment rolls of illegals would be near zero. this jail time would occur if the employer does not use e-verify and a few other things that the gov would put in place. if the employer does these and the illegal is shown to be legal, then the employer is off the hook.

    the reason japan and some other european counties need immigrants is because they have a declining population, we do not. so no. as far as the need for "grunt" labor goes, it is nice to see you believe in having nice things built on the backs of cheap labor. myself, i prefer to pay for what it actually costs to be made with the proper cost of labor, thus everyone one wins, not just "me". japan and those european countries your speaking about do not have the high crime we have from our "immigrants", nor the social costs of a large group of people abusing the system, as the "native" born all have about the same work/social ethic. our country already has a large enough population that will do the low to unskilled labor if it pays decent enough and the welfare teat is cut off (which is another subject, but would be easier to cut off if wages for unskilled labor was higher). plus those few european countries and japan enjoy "higher" standards of living, now how could that be, you just said it was a benefit to us.......

    the reason immigrating here is harder now is look at the mess we have now. too many people with zero to few skills.

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    If not for our immigration we would have a flat population with no or little growth, not enough to sustain growth. Check the facts and you will see that is well documented. The US has a higher standard of living than any country other than some very small countries like Monoco. This is also well documented. We have the largest economy, and more GDP per person, higher average incomes, and more disposable income than any other country (again, excluding tiny countries like Monoco).
    DiederichFarm
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdiederich View Post
    If not for our immigration we would have a flat population with no or little growth, not enough to sustain growth. Check the facts and you will see that is well documented. The US has a higher standard of living than any country other than some very small countries like Monoco. This is also well documented. We have the largest economy, and more GDP per person, higher average incomes, and more disposable income than any other country (again, excluding tiny countries like Monoco).
    World Top 10 - Countries with Highest
    Standard of Living

    Country

    1. Norway
    2. Sweden
    3. Canada
    4. Belgium
    5. Australia
    6. United States
    7. Iceland
    8. Netherlands
    9. Japan
    10. Finland


    URL: http://able2know.org/topic/55762-1

    smart immigration is allowing immigrants in that have skills, dumb immigration is allowing people to come in illegally or legally that have no skills and then take advantage of them by paying them substandard wages.

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    Your data is old, circa 2003... the US is fourth in the 2011 World Development Index. Behind only Norway, Australia and the Netherlands... oh and unless you have some vast oil reserves that you are going to exploit and an incredibly small population (Norway) you won't be passing them...and perhaps you remember the bombings in Oslo recently... that was because they are also taking in lots of immigrants and some nutjob disagreed with that policy and bombed his countrymen to get attention. Australia takes massive amounts of immigrants, skilled and unskilled and have vast mineral reserves that they are exploiting for the betterment of their citizens, they are very much analogous to the US. And the Netherlands is home to the EU government and International Criminal Court and has a tiny population, thus lifting its status.
    DiederichFarm
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdiederich View Post
    Your data is old, circa 2003... the US is fourth in the 2011 World Development Index. Behind only Norway, Australia and the Netherlands... oh and unless you have some vast oil reserves that you are going to exploit and an incredibly small population (Norway) you won't be passing them...and perhaps you remember the bombings in Oslo recently... that was because they are also taking in lots of immigrants and some nutjob disagreed with that policy and bombed his countrymen to get attention. Australia takes massive amounts of immigrants, skilled and unskilled and have vast mineral reserves that they are exploiting for the betterment of their citizens, they are very much analogous to the US. And the Netherlands is home to the EU government and International Criminal Court and has a tiny population, thus lifting its status.
    are they legal or illegal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dclanfamilydairy View Post
    are they legal or illegal?
    Mostly legal in the case of Norway, and some of each in Australia.
    Not sure what that has to do with it as I already stated that we shouldn't have illegal immigration and that the problem is with the immigration structure and policy as it is currently written. I never said we should increase illegal immigration or that it was good... if you refer to my first post in this thread I made that clear.
    DiederichFarm
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